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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Questions?

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I'm just going to give everybody one more minute to get your headphones.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: On your head. Give me a thumbs up if you can hear me okay. Wonderful.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Right.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Great. So good afternoon and welcome to.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Marketing at Trend Life. Trend Life is actually the newly rebranded consumer division of one of the world's largest and oldest… This session is not being live streamed, so, um…

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: That is only for the plenary sessions.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I'm just going to give everybody one more minute to get your headphones.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: On your head. Give me a thumbs up if you can hear me okay. Wonderful.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Right.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Great. So, good afternoon, and welcome to our session called AI on the Frontlines, Deploying AI Against Every Phase of the Scam Kill Chain.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: My name is Lynette Owens. I'm the Vice President of Consumer Education and Marketing at Trend Life. Trend Life is actually the newly rebranded consumer division of one of the world's largest and oldest cybersecurity companies, Trend Micro.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So brand new name, same great technology and company.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: The way that our breakout session is organized today is I'm going to introduce a guest speaker who will.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: speak about how they, as a practitioner, are addressing.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: this, what we call the kill chain, but everybody might have a different version of it, everybody might name it differently, and so, um, Steven will be walking us through, from his point of view, how a practitioner.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: deals with it.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: What follows after is a panel of experts, each of them providing technology solutions that address different parts of the chain. And that panelist session will be led by Jennifer Quaid of the Canadian Anti-Scam Coalition, which is a part of the Canadian Cyber Threat Exchange.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So with that, if there is time permitting.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: After each of the two sessions, we will allow for Q&A. The way, because of this audio setup, only this microphone will be able to take your questions. And so we will run those down into the audience.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: But I think for the sake of, uh, efficiency, we will save all questions to the end, whether they are for Steven or for any of the panelists. Okay?

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Wonderful. So with that, I'd like to introduce Steven.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Keep.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: of MasterCard, who is the Vice President of Security Solutions for North America.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Where he leads initiatives focused on scam prevention, identity, and first-party fraud.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Over the course of 20-plus years in U.S. intelligence.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: communication, GE Digital, and MasterCard, he's built and scaled products at the intersection of cybersecurity, AI, data science, and digital identity.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: With that, please welcome Stephen Keaton.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Awesome. Uh, thanks so much, Lynette. Uh, I have to admit, this is my first time presenting at a disco party, so it's a little awkward, but I appreciate everybody out here listening today. Um, first off, big thank you to Lynette and, uh, Trend Life for pulling this together. I think a really.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: informative conversation will unfold from a perspective of a network on the anatomy of a scan, and then also hearing from our esteemed colleagues of how they view the kill chain and the solutions that will come of it. First off, for those that were here for the first part of.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: of the conference here today, I think the stories that we heard were extremely powerful on why this matters, right? We heard a lot about how people are impacted mentally, socially, financially. It's a real issue that I'm glad that we're all here to help mitigate this problem.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: It also has impacts for the digital network and payments that we all operate in, that we enjoy being able to interact digitally and exchange goods and services digitally. And each time there is a scam, it undermines that trust layer that is really critical to keep moving.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So with that, my name's Stephen Keefe. I'm with Mastercard. As you know, I'm gonna be walking through what we've been doing recently as we look across what we call the anatomy of a scam. And so basically it's our perspective. It'll look similar to many of the frameworks that you see today.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: We thought it would be important to see from MasterCard and its lens and having those franchise rules and guidelines as well as at the point of payment and that facilitator of data that is exchanged between various financial institutions to make transactions happen.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: We wanted to give you that perspective and how we're thinking and evolving over time.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, so I'll run through, like, the various stages of what we are looking at and kind of start to break down. I'll then overlay where we are using some of our technology, intelligence, and data, uh, to help provide, um, insights so that we can kind of stop and get ahead of this.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, so one of the unique perspectives that we're starting to take a little bit more, we do break scams into two components. One, we do look at an information scam, so people who are giving over their PII. An example, I think, uh, George gave a good example of, uh, the internet, right? Where people were convinced to give over their credit card, their PII data.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And they extracted that information, and they were going to use it for nefarious purposes, whether it be a fraud component or maybe getting a larger scam. The other piece we look at is actually the payment facilitation of that scam, when somebody is actually paying someone and loses those funds.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, but across either of those, they kind of follow the same trajectory. And that is, you know, when we look at it, which is a little bit earlier than what most people are looking at it today, which we're really looking upstream, is how did that scammer even get set up? How, you know, how did they get into the ecosystem to be able to extract, uh, that information to start to operate?

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Then the victim touchpoint, how are they getting engaged? Is it an outreach, whether it be through text or email? Was it an advertisement that then pulled them in 'cause it linked to some of their behavior that they were found? The hook that scammers are using.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: invoking fear or urgency, or are they building trust over time, like in a romance scam? The instruction, right? Like, how are they instructing people where and how to pay those funds? And then at the execution layer is when they actually transfer that.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: that payment or that information, uh, extraction. And that can be on our payment rails, or A2A rails, other types of sources, um, in collecting that information.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: After that, you start to look at, well, now that the person has been scammed, how are they reporting? How are they looking to recover their losses? And then what type of rule enforcement do people have at their fingertips to either go to a law enforcement agency?

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Or within MasterCard, we look at how can we sharpen our guidelines, rules, franchises that we're positioned uniquely in a network to do. And so that kind of creates this loop that we're starting to look at and look exposure into.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So, you know, first, when we think about this anatomy of a scam, one of the big things that we're doing now is looking at the scammer setup. So, we saw on the data, like, purchase scams to continue to be one of the largest scams that are impacting people. We know that.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: the fast transition from COVID to people going to more digital spaces and interacting has also invited scammers to also start to get there and use AI and the sophistication, and I think we even heard the term the industrialization or commercialization of scams. They're figuring out how to set up very, very quickly.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: in a low-cost way that then they can start to push people to in their own places. So what MasterCard is doing is we look at that, we work with acquirers to help with that onboarding intelligence, that then they can make decisions that they can accept payments in our network.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And so we've really started to dig down into what data do we see globally that we can start to connect and find those patterns? Are people crisscrossing? Do different types of digital identity elements raise risks and flags that say, hey, this person is operating in a way that's likely they're setting up to be a scam merchant?

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: In addition, we're working with other partners to pull in external data, looking at websites, reviews, traffic, and pulling that really as far up as it can be of when they try to get into the ecosystem initially. And we're looking to spread that across all of our acquirers and partners and onboarding.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: to, one, make sure that we're really taking a good look and keeping scammers out that we can, without impacting the small businesses that are legitimate, that need to operate within our ecosystem and grow. So it's a nice balance, and we're really digging it, because this is where there's a vulnerability here.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: From the victim touchpoint, you know, we're seeing that there's more outreach that people are getting hit with. This is where MasterCard kind of puts, like, an education lens to it. You'll see the anatomy of a scam series. We are working with other partners on how to get that education and alerting up front.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, so that they know, like, hey, I really shouldn't engage, because once they do, once they get hooked, it's hard to get them off of the scam. Whether it be a trust scam, or the Taylor Swift tickets are for sale, you can't miss out, right? Because they're gonna go fast, right? So, there's something that's happening.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: One of the other places that I would say we're really focusing on is on the instruction piece, right? So, the where and how to send. At MasterCard, we have two very strong data sets that we look at. We have an identity graph that has over 8 billion identities within this identity graph that we've been building and compiling for years.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: emails, phone numbers, IP addresses, and we're constantly looking at those patterns and refreshing in near real time continuously. We also have payment intelligence data that we're seeing and how those names and things are used with different types of credentials. What's happening now is we can figure out the identity of the person, right, the person who wants to make the payment.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Where we're seeing things evolve is, who's on the other side? What's the identity of the person that is asking that? And does the consumer have the power to say, hey, you know, I think this is Mike selling me those concert tickets. It looks like he might live just a few blocks over.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I want to send them these funds, but I don't really know them. Can I actually push an authentication for something to check of, like, is this phone number spiking? Is this Gmail spiking? Are other elements saying, hey, he's not really who he says he is, so that I can make a more informed decision as someone that wants to push that payment?

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Uh, that's where we're kind of leveraging some of those, uh, elements that we have in a different flow, uh, for consumers to be empowered and working with financial institutions to help stop that mitigation.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: The other thing that's really important is on that instruction and execution is that when someone has been instructed and they've been hooked, right, how do you tell them that they've actually, you know, been deceived? And so we're working with providing those very specific reason codes.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: to consumers on, like, why this person is flagging to help break the spell. So those are different things that are, like, really proactively before the victim has the ability to send that payment. And we think this proactive approach is really where we're going. I think we'll hear more and more from the panelists on.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: and some other activities that are happening there. At the point of execution, this has been Mastercard's sweet spot for decades. We've been using AI for a very, very long time in different ways, looking at our payment intelligence and looking at patterns, how they're spending, how they're not.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And trying to get at, really, the point of, particularly within the guardrails, at that point of payment, in milliseconds, providing signals to financial institutions to understand the potential, um, risk or interjection. Um, one thing that I think we're also looking at, and I think we'll hear from some things, like.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: where there's opportunity at that point of execution, at the point of payment, we're looking at ways to understand, has a consumer been engaged with a scam number or an IP address? Like, have they been interacting? And so we're looking at collaborating.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, across the telcos and other ones that may have those signals of identified numbers, scam numbers, or websites, or domains, or other things that can be quickly injected if they start to flag.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, so within the victim reports, and I think this is really, really critical, we start to get down to now into, hey, the scam has gone through, they're going to report, and what's that recovery attempt? And so we work across our partners to figure out, how can we get more and more of that data, labeled data.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Sent to us and with that other identifying information that then can we can loop back into this anatomy of a scam kind of process that we see unfold here. And so you'll see more and more of initiatives from networks that are saying, okay, how do we get more data reporting in?

23:20:13 --> 23:20:29
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Across this purchase and digital payments thing, because we can start to inject it, enrich it, and put it at different points, whether it be stopping the scam merchants from getting into the ecosystem, further down the touch points and the instructions, or even at the recovery and attempts.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So again, this is really kind of the overview of the anatomy of a scam that we've started to put together, and how we're starting to use AI from our payment data, our identity data, our other partner data to enrich it, to really start to get these signals in earlier in the process.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: The last thing I think I want to leave you with is that I said a lot of things around the consumer, right? What we need to remember, and I believe this is kind of where the threat vector is going, small businesses are being targeted at an accelerating rate at some of these scams that we see coming.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So, invoice scams, um, they're being cyber-hacked as getting those information, and imagine you're a small business, you're trying to get your payroll paid, um, and somebody has somehow found out the name of your vendor, the typical amount you pay, it's probably much larger than what the average consumer's going to pay, so the ROI is gonna be really, really high.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And they're gonna trick you into making this payment very quickly. The sad thing is, is just in, I would say, the 4 or 5 hours I've been at this conference, I've heard this scenario, and it's not thousands of dollars, it's not tens of thousands of dollars, it is millions of dollars.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: that are being lost from small businesses getting scammed. And so we need to think about that other part of the eco-chain who's participating in digital payments, that they're also going to be manipulated and scammed as well. So it's a much broader ecosystem that's really, I think.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: continue to escalate and continue to grow.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So, Linda, I'm not sure if I'm good on time. I'm happy to pause. Um, we're good?

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Okay, perfect. So, with that, I'll hand over to Jennifer and the panel. Again, I think what you're going to hear now is a little bit of a different perspective of another framework that's not necessarily a network, but we can start to connect those components as well.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So thank you very much.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Thank you.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: It's my first time.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Well, if I get up there first, I'm blocking everybody.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Okay.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So, before you guys sit down.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: It's, come on, it's after lunch, we gotta move around a bit. I am going to get each of you.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: To introduce yourselves, briefly.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And in the introduction.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Tell us where you sit.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: where your solution sits in the MITRE ATT&CK framework that's being used.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Right? The fraud kill chain.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: It's in front of you. Yeah, can everybody see it there as well? Yeah, it's up on the screen, right? Okay.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And while we look at this, I'm just going to remind everybody.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: This is a framework.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: It doesn't mean that these are silos of information.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And that solutions fit neatly into one silo. In fact, I will tell you right now, if you look at the chart on the wall, or on the screen, see those gaps where the arrows are?

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: That's where the cockroaches live. Sorry, the scammers.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, they all live in the gaps. So we're gonna start with Jonathan.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Introduce yourself, and where do you sit in this kill chain? Alright.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Sorry, I'm reading it for the first time. No, no, it's not the first time. So, Jonathan Anastasia, uh, background quickly, ex-military, ex-lawyer, ex-Mastercard, now president of Cube AI.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: where we sit is that we hunt and attack scammers where they live, so I look at this and I think.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: reconnaissance resource development is the opportunity to be as proactive as possible, and as upfront as possible. And if you compare that to what you just saw on the MasterCard anatomy, the scam, it's pretty similar. I think you see the language operating in, like, two separate ways, but.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: It's at that beginning phase. Okay.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Robert. Yes, hello, good afternoon. So, I'm Robert Harris. Um, I'm industry relations for Feedzai. I've been at Feedzai 5 years. What we do is we sit at the sharp end, so you can maybe start to work out where that is. So, we provide the AI-native technology that helps banks and payment networks.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: stop the crime at that vital point at the end of the chain, just when the payment happens. So for us, we're sitting, if you look at the scam, we're sitting at the 6 and 7 section, right at the end, where that critical point happens.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So yeah, my background before that is I'm based in London, but I'm a Singapore permanent resident and I travel a lot speaking to government, to the regulators, to public bodies, associations. First of all, saying what is the art of the possible with AI technology today, but also understanding where the challenges live.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, if you check me out on LinkedIn, you'll see that there is no option to put a global location. You have to say a country. The one country I found was No Man's Land. So that's where you'll find me. Thank you.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Zach. Hi, everybody. My name's Zach Martin. I'm a director at Venable. Venable's a law firm, but I am not a lawyer. So I work in digital identity and cybersecurity and AI. I sit in two and three in the kill chain with…

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Basically, digital identity, trying to use, also use digital identity to help prevent the scams, um, and, you know, basically fraud prevention, that aspect of, of the kill chain.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Fabulous. Rose?

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Rose. It's me again, if you attended this morning's session. I'm Director of Consumer Threat Intelligence and Threat Research. Do I need to do that ex-stuff? I'm ex-tech support, ex-social media manager, ex-SRE. You don't have to steal my stuff. It's okay. Okay, sure.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So TrendLive Cybersecurity threat research and product seats across stages two to five. So the threat research, we do our threat modeling in stage two, which our findings go into two different direction.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, first is into product, and so we could have a sharper detection, and then the second is into, um, public education, which is through our blog, through media collaboration, and through law enforcement collaboration. So we are proud.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: partner, part of the Confrontation Ghost, which was mentioned earlier, and they got to share, uh, Global Scam Intel, uh, in… Global Scam Intel and also UAE Scam… Scam Intel, uh, some couple of weeks ago. Um, cybersecurity… consumer endpoint cybersecurity.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: you know, blocks initial access. And then we have different solutions in correlating those signals from 3, 4, and 5.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So I'm gonna ask you now to stand in the order, or now you can sit, in the order where you sit on this chain.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Which is the start? Which ends the start? Are you the beginning? I'm the beginning!

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I'm going down. Stay right here. All right. Can I get your seat, actually? No. Which one? Stage 1, 2, 3, 4. Which one is what? Two. So, you and Robert switch. Okay. And you and Zach can fight.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: That works.

23:28:00 --> 23:28:02
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Okay, now let's sit. So…

23:28:02 --> 23:28:06
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So based on what you have said and what we have heard.

23:28:07 --> 23:28:09
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Time in memoriam.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: We all need information, we all need collaboration, I've said it now.

23:28:15 --> 23:28:21
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Uh, we need to… We made a joke about this, so she has to do a shot after this panel, because she said collaboration.

23:28:21 --> 23:28:25
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So…

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: We all need data.

23:28:28 --> 23:28:36
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Based on where you sit, you are four different solution providers that work together.

23:28:36 --> 23:28:38
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: On this scam kill chain.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: What do you need from each other? If nobody else in this room is going to get something out of today, I'm hoping that each of you will develop a relationship where you can actually learn from each other and improve what you're doing.

23:28:52 --> 23:28:58
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Okay? So, rather than start at the beginning, I'm going to start at the end.

23:28:58 --> 23:29:06
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: He wasn't prepared for that. That wasn't according to the script, by the way. Robert, what do you need.

23:29:06 --> 23:29:18
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: to stop the whole process. Okay, so before I… Okay, so this has come to me unexpectedly, but before I come on to the obvious sort of things you might want to hear, I'm going to say a couple of things. First.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: In an ideal world, we wouldn't need anything from these guys, because they would be stopping it at stages 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It would never get to me, so we wouldn't need any data, because there wouldn't be the scams coming to the banks and the payment networks. But obviously… Now let's move to reality. Second point I would make is where we sit at the end.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I would actually break it down into three phases. You have the bank, the initiating bank, who's actually responsible for the payments and the accounts and the well-being of their customers. But after that, not shown here, but after that, we always look at the network.

23:29:50 --> 23:29:58
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So what can the network do before the money actually even reaches the criminal or the bad guys? And then you have the receiving bank.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And there's been a lot of progress, without going into detail, there's been a lot of progress in the, you know, in the past few years about improving what can be done at each of those three stages. So although, you know, on this it's six and seven, really we think about it in three ways. Paying bank, the victim's bank, the network and the receiving bank.

23:30:15 --> 23:30:27
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: what we have to do, there's a big caveat as well, um, so I say we're AI-native technology, one of the non-negotiables for us is to be able to process as much data.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: in very fast, low latency, as possible. So the more information, as we know.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: the better. Selecting the right pieces of information is just as critical, actually, as being able to process everything.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So that's a non-negotiable. We have to have it in very far sub-second, you know, sub-250 millisecond latency for it for us to be any use. Otherwise, we're going to start upsetting consumers, and the banks and the networks won't want to adopt it. So immediately, a lot of the information that we could be getting.

23:30:57 --> 23:31:12
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: is no use to us, right? Because we can't get it at that speed and that deliverable. So what we need is the banks have a lot of data, but clearly there's more, right? So we can get things like the telco data, there's been a lot of talk around that, but how do you make it…

23:31:12 --> 23:31:27
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: actually accessible at those speeds at a reasonable cost, right? You can't go possibly calling out for telco data for every single payment. It just wouldn't be cost effective. And the second thing we need probably from the big techs is all that account information that they hold.

23:31:27 --> 23:31:35
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: all that insight they have. Um, so I think that's what we need from earlier. But ideally, we wouldn't even need any of it, because it'll be stopped before it comes to us.

23:31:35 --> 23:31:38
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: We can hope. Rose.

23:31:39 --> 23:31:54
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I'm just going to reiterate what I described earlier this morning, the signal that we need in order for us to keep up with different scam campaigns, because what we do is more of understanding the scam operations.

23:31:54 --> 23:32:15
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: mapping that whole operations. And so we could build it into a threat model. So the signal that we need is coming from social media, social media platforms to know what are the live scam campaigns. And so we don't have to commit to resources and we don't have to commit our resources to scam campaigns that will just be abandoned.

23:32:15 --> 23:32:32
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: after 48 hours. So I've mentioned earlier this morning that scammers, they are A/B testing different lures. So they will abandon scam campaigns that are not working fast and are not working for them. So that's one source or lead.

23:32:32 --> 23:32:45
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: But of course, if the gentleman here have other scam campaigns and threat intel signals that, you know, we would be happy to ingest and learn from.

23:32:45 --> 23:32:59
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Alright? Zach? I'm gonna say that I don't need anything from my fellow panelists. I need… what I need is… I need policymakers, I need legislators… Oh. …to enable…

23:32:59 --> 23:33:14
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: mobile driver's license, verifiable digital credentials, strong authentication technologies to be used by regulated industries so that we can stop some of these scams before they even happen. So that…

23:33:14 --> 23:33:29
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: people like MasterCard would be able to have these verifiable digital credentials on the back end that shows that somebody on social media… it wouldn't say that Zack Martin is Zack Martin to somebody trying to buy tickets.

23:33:29 --> 23:33:31
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: But it would just, like, maybe have a…

23:33:31 --> 23:33:47
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: star, a watermark somewhere saying, hey, this individual has been verified to be a legitimate person, and that would show that they are a legitimate person. They have that strong authentication on the back end of things.

23:33:47 --> 23:34:06
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, enable these credentials to be used for identity verification, for opening bank accounts, for healthcare, for insurance, across all sorts of various sectors. That would be a huge step forward. We're, you know, I… one of the… one of my jobs at Venable is helping run the Better Identity Coalition. This is one of the things that we've been focused on.

23:34:06 --> 23:34:15
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Also, strong authentication is another challenge. Passkeys, phishing-resistant authentication, GenAI has made phishing…

23:34:15 --> 23:34:31
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: at scale, really cheap, and, you know, if you use phishing-resistant authentication, you know, that would render all the phishing emails moot. So I would say that those two things, if we can have regulators and policymakers enable those types of technologies.

23:34:31 --> 23:34:43
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: that would render a lot of those parts moot. And I'm just going to point out to those of you who can't see, our MasterCard speaker is sitting here nodding his head fairly vigorously at that.

23:34:43 --> 23:34:54
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Jonathan. That was a good cheeky answer at the beginning, I'm not gonna lie. Um, I think it's two things in a bit of a different way. So the first part, when you're sitting there trying to hunt.

23:34:54 --> 23:35:10
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: One is it knowing the targets, knowing where to hunt, where to apply AI to appropriately go after and end the kill chain. So part of that would be where, you know, where Robert's sitting, they know when something has gone wrong. They know that money has stopped or they've identified it. Well, guess what?

23:35:10 --> 23:35:26
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: There's a whole level of information of whether that is a social media profile, name, an account, something like it, that is information and areas to go after. That becomes very interesting to me. I think along the way, all of those different pieces can be areas where you can investigate.

23:35:26 --> 23:35:43
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Stepping back, though, when I look at this, when I look at, you know, Stephen did the anatomy of the scam, and you look at the kill chain, there are all these connection points, and there's frameworks, but there's the idea of, like, are we looking at the entire corpus of the issue? So you're getting there a little bit, I'll take it a step further, and we were talking about it before.

23:35:43 --> 23:36:01
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: But it's this idea of how to operate in a standardized way across all of these things. We're all operating businesses generally to make money, and the goal of that means that we're incentivized to take specific actions and specific behaviors. What would happen, though, if everybody had a standard way of identifying, explaining, using it.

23:36:01 --> 23:36:16
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: would then facilitate these things being utilized across that ecosystem. It's… it's that idea that we are trying to figure this out step-by-step in the kill chain. The criminals don't give a shit. They are just simply attacking.

23:36:16 --> 23:36:23
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And that is one of the differences. We're trying to play by rules, and we're making them up, and we're patching it together, and they are not.

23:36:24 --> 23:36:28
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Sadly, we are building the plane while we're flying it.

23:36:28 --> 23:36:34
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Okay, I'm going to pivot for a minute, and I want to pick up on something that…

23:36:34 --> 23:36:41
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: One of our panelists said in… when I asked each of them to send me their brief bios and their introductions.

23:36:42 --> 23:36:49
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And I want to pick up on two things. One, the title of this session is actually the use of AI in these technologies.

23:36:50 --> 23:36:54
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And now I want to throw Robert completely under the bus.

23:36:54 --> 23:36:59
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Because in his bio, he said, and I'm gonna quote.

23:37:00 --> 23:37:05
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: AI gives defenders the upper hand.

23:37:05 --> 23:37:08
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So who here agrees with that?

23:37:08 --> 23:37:23
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Yeah, that's not a big show of hands. But I've got to speak. I've got to speak now. Yes, but you may have to defend yourself before I throw the mics over to the other three to really go after you. No way, no way.

23:37:23 --> 23:37:40
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Thank you, thank you, yeah. But even before I've spoken, look at that. So after I've spoken, I want all the hands to go up. Okay, so Fabian, thank you. There's a couple of caveats, right? So first of all, right, I've been to nine GASAs now, this is my ninth GASA. There are certain terms and there's certain concepts that get talked about a lot.

23:37:40 --> 23:37:46
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: without any qualification. You hear the word, we heard it already on the stage, collaboration.

23:37:46 --> 23:38:01
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: We heard about how the criminals and the fraudsters are so clever with their use of AI. Yes, but so are we, right? We're all so clever. So it's meant to be provocative because we go to a lot of these summits. I've been to many, many, many.

23:38:01 --> 23:38:20
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And the one thing that stands out at GASA is how everybody is always in agreement on every single panel. And that's just not right, right? Because we come from different backgrounds, we have different views. You pick any other subject to get somebody to talk about, and there will be disagreements, or at least discussions. Here at GASA, you talk about scams, everybody's on perfect agreement.

23:38:20 --> 23:38:23
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So, first thing, provocative, right?

23:38:23 --> 23:38:40
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: let's have something that's a bit more debatable, and I'm happy to be challenged, but I also want to see a few hands go up at the end. And then the second point is, again, in my defense, is that we represent just one part of the kill chain, so I can't comment, I can't talk about what happens earlier on, I can't comment about social media.

23:38:40 --> 23:38:58
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I let the victim speak to what social media can do. What I'm talking about is AI's use at that final part of the kill chain, the banks and the networks. Use that in combination with the data, the masses of data, the ability to understand each and every individual's customer's behavior.

23:38:58 --> 23:39:14
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: That is what the criminals don't have at that point, right? I'm not talking about on their social media profiles, et cetera, but at that point when they're coming to make those critical decisions that will affect their lives, right? That is where AI can give us an advantage.

23:39:14 --> 23:39:17
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So that is my defense, and then, you know…

23:39:17 --> 23:39:33
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I'm not gonna leave you completely hanging out to dry. AI does have a very important role to play in stopping scams, you know, liveness detection for biometrics, um, risk analytics, you know, collecting all the different attributes to, you know, measure the different information, you know, it's huge, it's critical, you have to be…

23:39:33 --> 23:39:46
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: measuring all this different information and using AI to, you know, to track it and to measure it. It's critical these days. If you're not doing it, you should be. You must be. So, um…

23:39:46 --> 23:40:02
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: But I, you know, but again… I have one comfort already. Fraudsters aren't playing by the rules, they're doing whatever they can to fool people, so… it's an arms race. Well, I mean, I think… I do think you're right when you're talking about.

23:40:02 --> 23:40:20
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: that moment in time. Like, that moment in time is impossible without AI, right? Like, I think at MasterCard, we were applying that, like, 15 years ago in some of the products to look at, you know, those billions and billions of elements of data that you have to process and make those decisions. Absolutely correct.

23:40:20 --> 23:40:38
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I think the flip side problem of that is when you're doing it, you're looking at the skill chain, that's great if each individual bank is then doing it, right? But they're not applying it the same way across it. And the criminals are able to go, and we're looking at the skill chain, and it's not like it's the first time I've seen it, but I keep staring at it because it's in front of me.

23:40:38 --> 23:40:57
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: But it is that criminals aren't beholden to that one moment in time. That just because they're not sitting there worrying that, my God, I can't attack them because they're using Feedzai, that's not part of their process. No offense, I love you guys, that's not it at all. But they're sitting there saying, I can now use this to spin up multiple IDs, to run a phone farm.

23:40:57 --> 23:41:14
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: and have 500,000 conversations a day. And by the way, I can speak in Farsi and Portuguese and Italian with no problem whatsoever using a language module. Those just become challenges. So it's not disagreeing that we can use AI proactively.

23:41:14 --> 23:41:30
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I think the problem simply becomes when you start looking at this kill chain, we're applying it in silos across each one of these ecosystems, and the bad people aren't out there. They're just simply pointing and shooting and seeing where it goes. And it's… so you're not wrong in that one.

23:41:30 --> 23:41:45
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: nuanced, caveated-to-hell point of view you have. I just don't think it applies when you talk to criminals. I cannot really say that it's giving defenders an upper hand.

23:41:45 --> 23:42:00
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I cannot even say that we're staying ahead of scammers, but at least I can say that we are trying to be a step earlier, at least one step earlier, block earlier, alert earlier.

23:42:00 --> 23:42:17
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: do some data sharing, experimentation across sectors. Can I be a little bit more practical on the use of AI? Please. So where we use AI in threat research and also in.

23:42:17 --> 23:42:27
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: product. So, first, we have what we call the AI Scam Baiter Bots. So, these are AI bots that we deployed to suspected scammer operation.

23:42:27 --> 23:42:43
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And they do the underwork for us to engage with scammers. And so we could map the operations. And again, this is for our threat modeling. So it kind of solves one of the resource problem that we have. And so scam baiters, you know, can just…

23:42:43 --> 23:42:59
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: deal with the scammers themselves. So that's one practical use of AI in our operations, and the impact is volume. So we can do this now at scale compared to when we're doing under work.

23:42:59 --> 23:43:11
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: um, manually. Uh, the second part of using AI is, uh, through a capability we call scam radar, wherein we correlate.

23:43:11 --> 23:43:15
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: consumer behavior and signals on their devices.

23:43:15 --> 23:43:20
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: to determine whether this consumer is in a scam progression.

23:43:21 --> 23:43:39
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And this is the time that I should tell you, please visit our booth if you're interested in this capability. You didn't mention scam check. Another good use of AI. Yes, that's true. But another use of AI is not just on the correlation of signals, but generating the alerts.

23:43:39 --> 23:43:56
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: and the engagement to consumer. I don't know about your click-through standard, but we work with product team in numerous experiments. What alerts actually work for consumer? And the scam radar alert is getting 30% click-through rate.

23:43:56 --> 23:44:01
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Again, I don't know what's your standard, but to us, that's pretty high, which shows that.

23:44:01 --> 23:44:17
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Consumers are actually interested to learn more about scam. And usually for cybersecurity, the expectation from consumers, you just block silently, don't bother me. So a 30% click-through rate on scam alert is interesting. And the other KPI that we're looking at is the engagement.

23:44:17 --> 23:44:32
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So 70% of these users who click on those alerts actually finish the engagement that we delivered to them. And this is not a super short engagement. It's actually like four cards.

23:44:32 --> 23:44:47
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: some actions that you need to take in order for the scam to not progress. So, those are the uses of AI and also the impact that we're seeing, but I still cannot say that, you know, it's giving us an upper hand.

23:44:47 --> 23:44:55
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Yeah, but, uh, just, uh… You'll get there, you'll get there. So, so what I'm hearing, and this is, by the way, not rehearsed, is…

23:44:56 --> 23:44:59
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: It's good for us.

23:44:59 --> 23:45:01
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Better for them.

23:45:02 --> 23:45:04
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: You have to use it.

23:45:04 --> 23:45:06
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Absolutely.

23:45:06 --> 23:45:22
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: It's also for now. I mean, I think it's the idea that there's an incredible amount of smart people with well-deep-pocketed organizations here trying to apply it. So I think these sorts of sessions, and I agree, a lot of times we all say the same thing, I get that.

23:45:22 --> 23:45:40
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: But it is, we're trying to solve the problem. So actually, by us all sitting here looking at something like the kill chain, or anatomy of the scam, it gives you the idea of where to apply it. And part of that becomes that there are tools available, right? So, you can sit there, and each one of us are gonna have a different solution.

23:45:40 --> 23:46:00
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: that can attack a different part of the scam kill chain. The idea now is for you all sitting there from the practitioner side, or the banking side, or the merchant side, how do you start applying it? Which means that you're here to learn about it. So part of this is, the more that this becomes commonplace and second nature to what you're doing, the better you're going to be able to apply it.

23:46:00 --> 23:46:15
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: where then you can actually fight back in a more effective way. We were talking about this before. This is different than what MasterCard showed before, this is different than what a telecom company's gonna be looking at, what healthcare's gonna be looking at. Everybody's looking at different frameworks.

23:46:18 --> 23:46:19
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Okay.

23:46:19 --> 23:46:23
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So I think we're still okay on time, I'm going to ask.

23:46:23 --> 23:46:25
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: the panel.

23:46:25 --> 23:46:27
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: The impossible question.

23:46:29 --> 23:46:31
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Is there a magic bullet?

23:46:33 --> 23:46:35
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: For you.

23:46:35 --> 23:46:56
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Is there… there's never one magic bullet, you need a machine gun, but is there a magic bullet? Oh, and Robert is dying to jump in. Yeah, I know, I know, I know, because, you know, I'm so upset about people keeping their hands down. I know how to do it again, I could just say, yes, there is, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to. This time, no, definitely not, although I like to stress the positive, right? We like to see…

23:46:56 --> 23:47:04
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: we can do with some of these solutions out there are very clever. No, there is no magic bullet. I think we all know that. Why? Why is there no magic bullet?

23:47:04 --> 23:47:11
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: It's because the answer doesn't inline technology alone, right? Technology is pretty much now not the inhibitor.

23:47:11 --> 23:47:26
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Why it's not possible is because scammers rely on human nature. They rely on the trust of the human. And there's nothing we can do to do that. That's something we've grown up with for thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of years. We're naturally trusting. Look how we grow up in communities, look how we.

23:47:26 --> 23:47:42
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: develop in tribes or whatever. You have to trust each other. That's part of our inherent nature. So because of that, there's never going to be there's never going to be a magic bullet. Some of the things we talked about, though. Yes. If it feels like no object, no restrictions. Yes, please.

23:47:42 --> 23:47:58
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: social media, you know, like, give us all that information about every single account, every single customer, give us that telco data, but give it to us in that… in that speed, right? Don't give us to us… don't give us a directory we can look up and do a check every… every day, every week. We need it in those sub-millisecond latency, so that's…

23:47:58 --> 23:48:00
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: That's the ideal world.

23:48:00 --> 23:48:01
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And…

23:48:01 --> 23:48:13
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I think the thought I had when we came to this question, if I can just add that, right? How do we know if we're doing a good job, right? We will know if we're successful once we start seeing bank heists.

23:48:13 --> 23:48:14
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: increasing.

23:48:14 --> 23:48:21
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: 30 years ago, in the US, there were 25 bank heists every day. Now there are 3.

23:48:21 --> 23:48:37
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: The prosecution rate for a bank heist is well over 60-70%. So those people who commit those have got a much higher chance of being caught than getting away. Right? Why is that? Because they turn to scams. So if you want to see if gas has been successful, if we've all been successful in this room.

23:48:37 --> 23:48:42
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: just to look for bank highs to start going up again. Then we know we've done our job.

23:48:42 --> 23:48:57
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Okay. It's a different crime, just, you know, guns, and it's good. That's not an us problem, that's a them problem. Alright, Zach. I have, uh, mine's gonna be not quite, um, I'm gonna say resources, which boils down to money. Um…

23:48:57 --> 23:49:08
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I need money for states to start issuing mobile driver's licenses with verifiable digital credentials to enable these frameworks so that we can start using these credentials online.

23:49:08 --> 23:49:17
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: for, to verify our, uh, verify our identities. That's what I would like to see. So are you saying money, or are you saying digital identity?

23:49:17 --> 23:49:32
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I'm saying money so that states can start. We have 22 to 24 states issuing mobile driver's licenses at this point in time. I would like to see more states issue. I want money so that other states can start issuing them and so that and also.

23:49:32 --> 23:49:37
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: money for the states that are already issuing them for online use cases.

23:49:37 --> 23:49:53
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So digital identity is the magic bullet. Money is the mechanism. Can I answer that? Singapore resident, absolutely clear digital ID. You can't do anything in Singapore without your identity. You can't even vote without your ID. And you guys use phishing-resistant authentication too.

23:49:53 --> 23:49:57
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: The scam… the scamming rate is just as high in Singapore as it is in the rest of the world.

23:49:57 --> 23:50:14
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Well, it's the migrant workers. So, in Singapore, you have a lot of the migrant workers who will come over, be the housekeepers, cleaners, things like that. They'll come from Pakistan, Indonesia, they'll be for a little bit, and then as they leave, the scammers will buy the SingPass ID, and then they trade it off and they sell it.

23:50:14 --> 23:50:25
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: That's the primary issue. Again, going back to the cracks, where the criminals will fall into and understand those sorts of things, always happens. I just… if I could, just when you're asking that.

23:50:25 --> 23:50:46
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: My point of view would be that there has to be trust in AI. And there are these solutions that have outputs. And respectfully, some of you in here are already my customers, some of you are not. But I've been in enough boardrooms now where I try and explain how this works, and I get this glassy-eyed view of like, oh.

23:50:46 --> 23:51:01
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: That can do that. It's like, it goes back to, like, when we started talking about crypto 10 years ago, or digital ID, like, it's really hard to get people who will make decisions inside these organizations to understand it. So when I can sit there, when I'm sitting at the beginning of the kill chain, and I can say, look.

23:51:01 --> 23:51:17
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: from my platform and my agents, I'm able to identify bank accounts being used by criminals 80 days before there's any activity in your bank, guess what? That account is bad. That account is going to go bad. And then it's, well, I haven't seen a complaint yet.

23:51:17 --> 23:51:34
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I haven't seen a bad activities yet. It's like, well, of course not, because we've spoken directly to the scammer before something occurs inside your institution. And it's having trust that AI is creating those opportunities, those new tools. And it's not a magic bullet.

23:51:34 --> 23:51:48
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: But if we could actually lean in and understand at every organization how these tools work and believe them, it gives you the opportunity to apply them in differentiated ways. And then you can really drill down in each layer of the scam kill chain.

23:51:48 --> 23:52:05
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So you're talking about layered defenses. There's always going to be a lattice framework. That's a very basic security principle for every year, right? You know that from the cyber landscape and everything else. I think it's not so much the layered defense piece, it goes back to simply saying what we have right now.

23:52:05 --> 23:52:30
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: The status quo isn't working and we need to be open and accepting that technology shifts and changes. And for those who've been in the industry long enough who remember what happened like when the dot com boom occurred and you see when scam websites popped up and people are doing different scams like that. And then I think back to MasterCard when all of a sudden tokenization was coming to effect and everyone's like, this is going to solve problems. It doesn't solve the problems.

23:52:30 --> 23:52:50
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: but it makes it better, more understandable, more controllable. And that becomes the big piece when you're seeing all these solutions here. Yes, come to my booth, come to Rosabeth, come to all the booths, because the more you understand what's possible, the more you're gonna leave here, bring that back to your organization, spread that word, and hopefully people start thinking about this as commonplace.

23:52:50 --> 23:52:56
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So, AI for defenders has an opportunity, but people have to trust that they can use it.

23:52:56 --> 23:53:13
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Okay, Rose. No argument. There is no silver bullet for me, but more of a wishful thinking. The platforms that onboard scammers wishfully would stop them from onboarding, but we also know.

23:53:13 --> 23:53:31
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: they're not gonna do that? This is not recorded, right? They're not… No, no, it's recorded. It's being transcribed for you. Okay. I mean, because scammers are spending money on ads, so there really is no incentive to stop the scammers from different platforms, so…

23:53:31 --> 23:53:50
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I don't think there will be a silver bullet. Can I ask about that one for a second? Because we talk about that, but it's not just one platform, right? Every single thing is a platform now. Like, Roblox isn't here in the room today, but guess what? Like, that causes some of the most harm in the entire world that people don't even know about.

23:53:50 --> 23:54:06
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Right? If your kids are on Roblox, please check it out. Like, protect them. But every one of these platforms, Hinge, Bumble, Match is really good, I think Match is here today. But all of them, they're not going away. Right? There's always going to be more platforms, there's always going to be.

23:54:06 --> 23:54:09
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: More things that scammers can attack, so…

23:54:09 --> 23:54:17
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: they can all get better, but again, it fundamentally goes to, like, why are they able to do this? Why aren't we able to stop them earlier enough, or get ahead of it?

23:54:17 --> 23:54:25
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So, I want to pick up on that for a second, because, um, representing the Canadian Anti-Scam Coalition, we're a fully cross-sector.

23:54:25 --> 23:54:26
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: approach.

23:54:27 --> 23:54:31
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Obviously, FI's telcos.

23:54:31 --> 23:54:33
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: That's who's in the room here.

23:54:33 --> 23:54:35
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: But what about retail?

23:54:35 --> 23:54:38
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: What about transportation?

23:54:38 --> 23:54:46
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: What about pretty much anything else that you buy online, which is everything?

23:54:46 --> 23:54:48
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: They're all…

23:54:48 --> 23:54:52
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: being heavily impacted by scams.

23:54:52 --> 23:55:01
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Right? We forget about them. And we need to stop forgetting about them. Where do some of these IDs come? Go out and open a utilities account anywhere.

23:55:01 --> 23:55:03
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: It's really easy to do.

23:55:04 --> 23:55:12
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: We need to include them in the process, because they are also suffering, and they are a source of victims.

23:55:12 --> 23:55:17
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Just a reminder to everybody, for all the others out there, and small business…

23:55:19 --> 23:55:29
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So, last thoughts before I open us up to questions. I mean, we've talked about the magic bullets, plural.

23:55:32 --> 23:55:34
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: What can we do?

23:55:34 --> 23:55:35
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Here.

23:55:35 --> 23:55:38
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: What can this group of people do?

23:55:38 --> 23:55:46
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: to work through the biggest challenges. If you had one piece of advice or one request for everybody in this room.

23:55:47 --> 23:55:56
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: What would it be? And this time, I'm not gonna start with Robert, because he's been my, you know, starting point for a few. You're welcome.

23:55:56 --> 23:55:58
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Zack.

23:56:00 --> 23:56:07
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, do what you can to protect your consumers. Um, I know I probably am a bit of a broken record when it comes to this stuff, but, like.

23:56:07 --> 23:56:20
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: passkeys, phishing-resistant authentication, it's kind of low-hanging fruit from my perspective. I would look into using this technology. It's fairly easy to implement if you're using modern identity and access management technology, you know.

23:56:20 --> 23:56:26
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: saves a lot of pain and headaches for your users, so that would be what I would recommend.

23:56:26 --> 23:56:28
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Anybody? Request? Okay.

23:56:30 --> 23:56:48
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: to quote Merchant of Venice, kill all the lawyers? No, no, bear with me. So, I've been thinking about this, right? There's that idea for, in everybody's organization, there becomes that moment where we're saying, well, we're getting in this data, or we want to use this tool, or we want to apply it in this way.

23:56:48 --> 23:57:03
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And inevitably, and rightfully so, it becomes a point where legal, privacy, regulatory says, well, this is a lot of risk. There's this idea of, imagine we could bring those district parties here in this room together, bring your lawyers in.

23:57:03 --> 23:57:19
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: and give them the hypothetical. Attorneys enjoy the hypotheticals. Your consumer bank head, your retail bank head, your chief risk officer, your CEO said, I want to do this, I'm willing to accept the risk. And then find me.

23:57:19 --> 23:57:29
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: the actual legal reasoning why we can't do it. Not from a protection, brand protection, like, the actual laws. And then let's address them.

23:57:29 --> 23:57:48
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: in a way that then the parties could work through it and apply and use these tools that fast. Because again, the criminals aren't concerned. They do not have the morality, the rules, the regulatory environment to go after it. So when I sit there in my system, I can go out and have 60 million conversations with a criminal.

23:57:48 --> 23:58:04
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: every single month, and I can then generate 50,000 unique payment accounts that the criminals are using, and I'm still catching 5-10% of what's going on in the world, because then it starts to get applied. That conversation has to happen, which means the organizations.

23:58:04 --> 23:58:20
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: need to be able to use it. So it is that idea, can we get through the sticking points amongst everybody to really apply it in a way that everyone says there's risk here, but allowing this to continue is the riskier proposition for everybody in the ecosystem.

23:58:20 --> 23:58:21
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Okay.

23:58:22 --> 23:58:33
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Um, so I'll take two answers. So the first one is very easy, so not part of our… where we sit in the chain, right? For the rest of the people in the chain, fix identity.

23:58:33 --> 23:58:40
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Right? It's breaking, and it will break even more. That needs to be fixed. For where I sit on the chain.

23:58:40 --> 23:58:53
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: it comes back to what you ask of the consumer. What do you ask of the victim? Yes, we need to, obviously, there's lots of conversations here, a whole work stream about education, how do you educate the customer, how do you make them more self-aware?

23:58:53 --> 23:58:58
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: But you don't learn just by telling people. We can see people switch off. You need to be able to give people the ability to act.

23:58:58 --> 23:59:15
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And that what I think is lacking, the ability for people to set their own controls, their own guardrails about their own activity. That way then they will start to engage and learn. So I think there's some work to do in financial services to give people, the customers, some choice. Things are happening, there are.

23:59:15 --> 23:59:31
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: some things that are happening about setting limits, setting where your location can be when you're making certain payments. There's a whole range of different parameters. You should go on to something like, I don't know, YouTube, Spotify, maybe some of the gaming platforms. There's a whole host of different parameters.

23:59:31 --> 23:59:41
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: that customers, consumers are very, very comfortable in setting for themselves, right? You don't, you can't really do that in your banking apps, right? So that's how I think we should go forward.

23:59:41 --> 23:59:50
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Rose? I would say experiment and participate in experiment, in different experimentation.

23:59:50 --> 00:00:05
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: of course, I will say data sharing, because Jonathan hates that word. God, so many shots, so many shots. Um, but data sharing is already happening, you know, everywhere, so there are already proof of concepts running, um, at this moment, so…

00:00:05 --> 00:00:25
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I don't think technology is the blocker there. Sure, policy, regulation, and the economics of doing the data sharing. I also hear what you want, which is, like, milliseconds. You know, if you're going to share some signal with me, it has to be real fast. Yeah, I get that, but I think, yeah, we should not fear all those.

00:00:25 --> 00:00:41
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Profound messages. Talk to, you know, the person beside you, or go to the booths, like what Jonathan is saying, and explore, talk about, you know, what signals you actually need, and then describe, you know, what.

00:00:41 --> 00:00:54
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: what is the format of signal that you need? Like, you know, what you're saying, and so you could have an alignment whether you really have that data that could be shared and could enhance your solution to consumers.

00:00:54 --> 00:01:15
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Can I have one last thing? Because I'm sitting here, I'm staring at this framework in front of me, and the MasterCard anatomy of a scam on this one. I actually think one of the pieces is that everybody here in your organizations, you should have a framework that applies to your own business and organization that's fit for purpose for you, and then figure out how you can apply those AI tools at the different part of the skill chain.

00:01:15 --> 00:01:31
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: For it to work. Because that would then make a lot more sense of whether we're talking, I'll say the word, whether it's data sharing, whether it's tools, whatever the case may be, because you know what you need to apply and where you need to apply it. And that becomes a big difference. And I think that part is lacking right now, organizationally.

00:01:31 --> 00:01:39
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So I'm going to add on to that with the last word. I get that. And that is, so you said.

00:01:39 --> 00:01:50
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: the lawyers, the risk people, privacy, that is a big problem. I'm actually going to suggest tying that into what you just said. Bring them into your framework.

00:01:51 --> 00:01:59
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Don't go to your lawyers and your privacy and your risk teams with a, here, this is what I want to do.

00:01:59 --> 00:02:03
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Because the answer is no, because it's the easy answer.

00:02:03 --> 00:02:07
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: If you bring them into the problem.

00:02:07 --> 00:02:14
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And make them part of the team that is there to solve the problem, you have a better chance of getting to yes.

00:02:15 --> 00:02:17
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Right? Bring them in.

00:02:17 --> 00:02:24
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And include them in your internal scam-fighting framework.

00:02:24 --> 00:02:37
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: As I… I do work in AI governance, and as you work as an AI governance framework board, having these people involved is critical, because it does help them.

00:02:37 --> 00:02:45
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: say yes more easily than if otherwise. And bring them to mornings like we had this morning. Let them hear from the victims.

00:02:45 --> 00:02:50
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Let them listen to the phone calls that your call center has to take.

00:02:50 --> 00:02:52
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Believe me, they'll be your friends then.

00:02:53 --> 00:03:01
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: All right. Thank you to my panelists. But before we go, I think we have time for one or two questions. I see one in the back.

00:03:05 --> 00:03:08
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I'm going to run it back to you. It's coming.

00:03:08 --> 00:03:10
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Sorry, we gotta get our steps in today.

00:03:10 --> 00:03:12
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Said nobody ever.

00:03:14 --> 00:03:20
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Can you — you guys can hear me from here? Yes, sorry. All right, so.

00:03:20 --> 00:03:36
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: talked about the silver bullet, I heard about some background in governance, and I think everyone here kind of sees the potential and how AI can execute in the scam kill chain, but I feel like one of the fundamental problems is that AI as it is today.

00:03:36 --> 00:03:46
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: it's a stochastic technology, right? There's not much determinism, and the problem space that we're trying to mitigate against is.

00:03:46 --> 00:03:51
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: also stochastic, which is why we see the hope in AI. However.

00:03:51 --> 00:03:55
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I'm just wondering, with all the experts on the panel here today.

00:03:55 --> 00:04:04
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Can you share your thinking on how you minimize that stochastic space to quantify and increase what accuracy means in this kill chain?

00:04:06 --> 00:04:18
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So I… if I can jump in just in the beginning, the deterministic piece is really key. I think that changes it. So where I sit and operate for the kill chain, I actually think.

00:04:18 --> 00:04:37
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: this is a fundamental problem in that application of AI for everybody. It is the ability to say, how do you differentiate signal from noise? So, part of what… I only speak for my platform and system, when I'm going out talking to all of those scammers, what we end up doing at the end of that conversation and that engagement.

00:04:37 --> 00:04:54
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: they give us a bank account or payment destination. What that allows is then we have that deterministic piece of information, the bank account, let's use that going forward, with all the evidence of the conversations across it, that allows us then to move upstream, and everything else we gather upstream.

00:04:54 --> 00:05:10
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: from a phone number, from an information, from social media handle, or any of those different things, gets tied back to that hard asset. And I'll give you a very specific example, where we were having conversations with some criminals on one forum, and they were talking about how they needed to, you know.

00:05:10 --> 00:05:26
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: create these images for a website. And from that conversation, we saw them go into the dark web and buy OpenAI keys, so they could steal the compute to then build those images on OpenAI. And of course, in OpenAI, you have the steganography with.

00:05:26 --> 00:05:43
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: the actual determination of what that image is as part of it, but then you see that image show up on a WhatsApp channel, where somebody's selling something, and then you get the link to join a trading group, and at the end of it, again, there's a payment where somebody wants you to send money. But now everything upstream of that becomes deterministic information.

00:05:43 --> 00:05:59
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: that somebody can rely on and trust. So it doesn't solve it, I can only speak to my platform with it, but the way I always describe it is, you're sitting there using AI and risk scores and machine learning models, and those are great, but those are probabilistic, and you're trying to find the needle in the haystack.

00:05:59 --> 00:06:11
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: What I bring you is a haystack full of needles. Everything is a decision point. Getting there across the board is hard, but I think that does bring some clarity to that blank space, if you will.

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Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Anybody else?

00:06:16 --> 00:06:32
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: So from where or how we are using AI in our operations and product, so we have to build our own evaluation of our own AI. So this is more of an engineering point of view. So we need to have those.

00:06:32 --> 00:06:47
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: evaluation frameworks for those AI, we need to develop LLM judges, and we also need to know when humans should be in the loop, because, you know, in the end, you cannot leave everything to.

00:06:47 --> 00:06:55
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: AI. But that has to be part of the framework, a decision criteria when the human should be in the loop.

00:06:58 --> 00:07:06
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: One more question? I'll repeat it, okay? So, I'm just curious if you all see yourselves as competitors with one another, or…

00:07:06 --> 00:07:17
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: how realistic it is that you would work cooperatively? The question is, do they see themselves as competitors with each other? And how… how realistic is that they will work cooperatively?

00:07:19 --> 00:07:36
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I'm not a competitor with anybody here. I don't think any of us compete. I think we rely on the actual use case. So in our scenario, you know, we obviously work with the institutions, you know, Trend Life work with the consumer.

00:07:36 --> 00:07:51
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: you know, if the financial institution can see value in us working together, then we'll be partnering tomorrow, right? But there's no point in just us working together until we find that use case, until the institution suggests that they can see value. It's a bit like the telco scenario, yeah? We know the value of telco data.

00:07:51 --> 00:07:56
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: But the institutions need to find it commercially viable for them to be able to do that.

00:07:56 --> 00:08:14
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: I think in the AI space, there's so much greenfield for us all to create, that I think if you're sitting there, if you're an organization buying one of those solutions, you could buy all of that, but then also buy a direct competitor, right? You're gonna create those overlapping fields of fire, because it's gonna better protect you and make you safer.

00:08:14 --> 00:08:20
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And I think that's going to happen for a long period of time here. So it goes back to the concept of the layered defense.

00:08:20 --> 00:08:22
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Right?

00:08:22 --> 00:08:32
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Thank you very much to my panelists for making my job easy. Um, you may have a few shots. Um, but thank you all, and thank you all for joining us.

00:08:32 --> 00:08:34
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: Thank you.

00:08:34 --> 00:08:39
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: And finally, thank you to Trend Micro for the session. Thank you.

00:08:39 --> 00:08:41
Global Anti-Scam Alliance: That's trend life, actually.
